The art historian Bénédicte Savoy and the economist Felwine Sarr on stolen objects, sharing with African and European colleagues, as well as expectations and Fears on both sides.
African cultural heritage should no longer be a prisoner of European museums, announced the President of France, Macron 2017. He was Serious and asked for an Expertise, such as a Restitution might look like. Has appointed Emmanuel Macron at the time in Berlin and Paris, teaching is an art historian Bénédicte Savoy, as well as the Senegalese economist and writer Felwine Sarr. The DW has spoken with both of them.
DW: President Emmanuel Macron has announced that France will return stolen objects from the former colonies. Both of you have created in order Macrons Expertise to feasibility. What you have proposed?
Felwine Sarr: In the national Museum collections in France, roughly 90 000 objects. We were able to demonstrate that two-thirds of which came during the colonial period in the collections. The appropriation was carried out as spoils of war, scientific expeditions, through purchases, donations, bequests. If the acquisition was against the will of the population, we have brought in experience, whether it was in the African countries of origin, demands for Restitution of these objects.
Bénédicte Savoy: And that is why we recommend that these objects, if a return exists, the claim will be restituted without major difficulties. And there must be legal Arrangements or a change in the law, which we also recommend.
Your recommendation is actually mainly about returns, or are there Alternatives, so that the objects remain Hiking, or on loan in the French museums?
Felwine Sarr: To touring exhibitions and loans there is already a tradition of Cooperation between European and African museums, since there is no need for new negotiations. Our work consists above all of us with the Restitution. When you strike this term, suppressed every thought to the colonial history and the Nations, now calling for these objects.
Large Royal statues of the Kingdom of Dahomey from the years 1890-1892 in may 2018 in Paris. Dahomey, a West African Kingdom, from the today’s Republic of Benin emerged. Not a gift, but looted art, says the government.
You have traveled for your research in the past year, several times to Africa and have spoken with politicians, scientists, municipalities, and a wide variety of people in the countries of origin. Are you running open doors?
Felwine Sarr: In some countries, the Communities were already very strong with the theme, in the other hand, the interest prior to the publication of the report was not so lively. Now there is a real Hype about the restitution issue. The individual States have written lists of objects that you wanted to reclaim it. The topic is experiencing a Renaissance.
Bénédicte Savoy: We always talk of Africa as if it were a unit. Africa is not a unit. This means that The reactions were different. In the Republic of Benin, for example, the memory of the destruction of the Kingdom by the French, is still very fierce. All remember that there was a king, that he was sent into exile, that a Palace was burned to the ground. And on the occasion of this plunder and 2000 objects came to Paris.
There are other areas where the objects are a little less present, because they come from a Royal Palace. For example, fishing nets: In Senegal, we talked with a Museum Director. He said, in these fishing nets of mathematical formulas are linked, you would decipher in a research project at the University. Old forms of knowledge that have been forgotten, but in this Weaving could be reconstructed. We have spoken in Bamako, in Mali, the Museum’s Director. He told us: “We don’t want to have certain categories of objects we have here. But from the other hand, we have quite a lot of – we don’t need. Can be used to keep France.” That is to say, we had to do it with a very reasonable reactions.
Post card of the former “Colonial war memorial” in Bremen, Germany prior to 1945 (on view in the exhibition “The blind spot” in 2017, in the Kunsthalle, Bremen)
Felwine Sarr: The African conservators have also thought about how we could make the spaces to fill in, which would arise in the European museums through the return. This shows that there is a relationship. The people not interested only in favour of their objects back, but they thought about how they could fill the Void that would be left by the objects. For me, this was a Reflection on the relationship, the exchange between Africa and Europe.
In the debate it was often said that the museums feared that the cabinets are soon to be empty. This can be in five years? What is your assessment?
Felwine Sarr: no, that is unrealistic. In addition, this requires that the countries make demands, want it all back, what seems to be the case. Much more likely is that you want to have some objects with a high symbolic value and are not thousands, but probably less than a hundred. It is expected that the will expire everything over a long period of time and in different speed: Some countries need more time in the skills and infrastructure to prepare. The desire seems to be, the museums leerzufegen. Here is a horrors will be staged scenario, in order to spread fear. But realistically is not.
In her much-acclaimed book, “Afrotopia,” which has just appeared in German, describe how Africa is from the outside, is actually always dying or in decline is described. What is the current debate on the back says gave over in Europe, today’s view of Africa?
Felwine Sarr: it is Interesting to hear now, where the debate about the Restitution of cultural goods runs, the arguments that reveal a deep-seated condescension. If to say about Africa, there were no museums or we are unable to manage their own works of art. You can’t be sure, that the objects of cultural heritage were in safety. Not all say this, but large parts of the population are convinced that the objects were in Europe a lot safer – and that it would be maybe even for the sake of Africa, if you would like to keep her there. This means that There is much work ahead of us to the view of “decorative lonisieren”.
Emil Nolde, 1913/1914: “men’s head” (also from the exhibition “The Blind spot” of 2017)
By the end of 2019, the Humboldt will be opened in the Forum in Berlin. Armed to the Museum for ethnological art, a prestige project of the Federal government, there are already long. Mrs Savoy, they have brought the debate to the return of objects and artifacts from the former colonies in the summer of 2017 with their noisy exit from the scientific Advisory Board for the Humboldt forum in Germany in the Public. Today it is one of the great cultural and political topics. What is your fundamental goal, what is it about you?
Bénédicte Savoy: So for me, it was quite long to the transparency of the history of collections. The dark side of museums, the present, otherwise, only your Golden hand, was important to me. And it was important that the Public, especially the younger Generation, can enjoy the beauty of the objects – with full awareness that this joy has a downside. The wider Public didn’t know that I found the right one. But now the debate is there, now all know that these collections have difficult stories in the back. I think that this is a very big step has been made. The Restitution is a political decision, the politicians must meet.
The Interview was conducted by Sönje Storm on 17.01.2019 in the house of literature in Munich.